Atlas Shrugged

[matty]

Atlas shrugged presumably out of indifference.

Diamond and I are going to read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand and have various discussions about it. Anyone care to join us? It's going to be arduous, taxing, frustrating, and I'll tell you right now, I probably won't finish it, but isn't that the whole point of Ayn Rand?

Have the full Ayn Rand experience and join us.

ps--I still haven't gotten a copy for myself yet, so you have plenty of time....

[matty]

Oh my!

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/articles/annc_atlas-shrugged-film.asp

:barf:

[slam]

i've read it. it's possible i could read it again some day, but not for a few decades at least. once i forget how bad of a writer ayn rand is. good story, interesting plot, shitty ass characters and exceedingly drawn out speeches.

shit, i gotta get back to moving. gonna be a fun night!

[larryhead]

Ok that's wierd... I'm actually reading Atlas Shrugged right now. :) I've been at it for a couple months now and I'm about 3/4 done and love it!


PS. The Fountainhead is also one of my favorite books.

[larryhead]

i've read it. it's possible i could read it again some day, but not for a few decades at least. once i forget how bad of a writer ayn rand is. good story, interesting plot, shitty ass characters and exceedingly drawn out speeches.

shit, i gotta get back to moving. gonna be a fun night!


lol.. what are smoking man?

OK, *some* of the speeches are ridiculously drawn out, but the character development is some of the best I've read anywhere and I agree, the story is really intriguing. I'm still not sure if I completely buy into (or even fully grasp) her philosophy though. So I guess I'm reading it more for the story... which is like an endurance contest sometimes. :) The one other book that was just massive to read was Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace... that thing took me like 3 years, lol.



I guess there is another book by Ayn Rand that I saw some women reading it on the train yesterday called Anthem (never heard of it before):
"Ayn Rand's novella set in a distant collectivist future, when every form and emblem of individualism has been erased and society has reverted to a preindustrial level. Its hero, a scientist in a world where the pursuit of knowledge is a crime, discovers the meaning of individual freedom."

I think I'll read it next. :thumbsup:




ps. how's the moving coming along?

[Diamond Vision]

so far I love it.

I'm about a 3rd of the way through now and taking a break... trying to create a scale tesselation to fold into this origami koi i like... but will be back to Atlas soon.

I am a big Rand fan and mostly buy into objectivism. The gyst is that as society evolved through industrialization to the industrial age, America has unwittingly evolved into a semi-socio-communist-like state where people have been programmed to do their jobs as interchangable parts, not humans. With that being the case, what is to happen with the original thinkers of our day; people who have new ideas & inventions (like Readon Metal)? This is the question posed by We the Living & Anthem. Atlas Shrugged was to be her answer.

So far, I really identify with many of the characters and often find that the ones I don't recognize in myself I hate! I can't wait for James to get what's coming to him. I love the elegance and the passion of the dialog. ..am not sure what long drawn out speeches were being referred to above...

[larryhead]

That's cool Diamond... have you read it before?


I think her objectivist philosophy is very evident today. I wasn't sure if it was still valid, and my counter-argument was going to be to look at the internet and all the new ideas and innovation of the last 10-20 years. But in actuality, this is an argument supporting objectivism.. which is becoming more obvious with each passing year. Obviously the innovators are still here.. The "looters" in this technology example are corporations like Acacia... they are a company that doesn't actually invent anything new, they simply buy up big vague patents from smaller companies as if they were buying property on a Monopoly board... their patent portfolio is huge. And they survive by launching lawsuits against the real innovators and by demanding licensing fees for commonplace things like putting video on your website (they claim to own the patent for that). There are many other corporations like them. Our current patent system is a perfect example of Rand's "looters" feeding off the "innovators". The only logical outcome is that it will discourage new ideas and innovation... because you will be punished for being great and excelling by those who contribute nothing. I wonder if the thinkers of today will choose the same course as they did in this book (which would be crazy if they did)... I don't want to give anything away though!

[slam]

i'm okay with the social libertarianism aspect of objectivism, but the uber-capitalism really throws me off. i'm a big believer in marx's "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". obviously, pure communism has never been proven to work, but i'm ok with a nice socialist capitalism middle ground, with progressive taxes and medicare. i want socialized health care. i want socialized insurance.

but in rand's world, those born handicapped or poor can just as well fuck off and die. sure sure, all of her main characters make out well, because they're usually people of extraordinary ability and charisma, but what about the other 99% of the population?

and don't worry diamond, you'll hit the speeches soon.

[Diamond Vision]

I'm done!

I actually finished about a week ago.
I found the long speeches, btw... I didn't think I was ever going to finish Galt's broadcast!
How's everyone else's progress? Larryhead, did you finish? Matty, did you ever start?

[withoutcanseco]

the only one i read was about ... oh shit what was it called. dude discovered the word "I". ANTHEM. yeah that 's it.

[larryhead]

I'm done!

I actually finished about a week ago.
I found the long speeches, btw... I didn't think I was ever going to finish Galt's broadcast!
How's everyone else's progress? Larryhead, did you finish? Matty, did you ever start?

Oh man... I'm currently still reading that damn broadcast... wtf, that speech must be over 30 pages long. Slam was right, lol.

DV, did you like the ending?

[oldmanindaclub]

"Know your place in life is where you want to be
Don't let them tell you that you owe it all to me
Keep on looking forward...no use in looking 'round
Hold your head above the ground and they won't bring you down

Anthem of the heart and anthem of the mind
A funeral dirge for eyes gone blind
We marvel after those who sought
The wonders of the world, wonders of the world
Wonders of the world they wrought

Live for yourself...there's no one else
More worth living for
Begging hands and bleeding hearts will only cry out for more

Well, I know they've always told you
Selfishness was wrong
Yet it was for me, not you, I came to write this song"


'Anthem'
by a certain Canadian prog band I will not mention for fear of swift reprisals

[matty]

Diamond, I'll have you know I DID start reading Atlas. I read fourteen pages. That was a month and a half ago.

But it's not my fault! I had to start reading Dracula for Halloween.

Also I'm too busy doing drugs and bustin' nuts to sit around and read like you homos.

Leave me alone!

[jason, inc.]

I think slam brought up a criticism that I share. Rannd's thought seems to me to reduce to an elaborate worship of the ego... It seems like a kind of a reaction to a sense of more and more aspects of one's life being out of one's control. I'm no expert, of course, but I find a lack of compassion in rand's work that makes it seem a bit limited.
Old Man:Don't fear reprisals! Proclaim it from the housetops! Play it loud out of a shitty truck!

[Diamond Vision]

Rand's "lack of compassion" is something I find refreshing and a point that I agree with her on completely.

It's all part of her "nothing for free" take on life. If you do something that damages me and say you're sorry, I shouldn't be required to forgive you just because "you're sorry." If you are truly sorry about a transgression, it will be apparent through your actions and not your words. That is, there is a difference between atonement and forgiveness. Atonement being an "exchange" and forgiveness being a loss for the giver and weakening both parties.

I think it's very well illustrated when Reardon's family begs forgiveness on the day of the riot at his factory.

It's not being cold and heartless, it's evaluating values and self repsect and choosing what deserves compassion and what doesn't.

[larryhead]

Just finished this finally last night. Could have been a few hundred pages shorter, but I really enjoyed it. :thumbsup:

However, now I think I'll read something a little lighter.

[Diamond Vision]

yea, since completeing it a couple months ago, i've read nothing but trash.

[larryhead]

Slam gave me 'Ender's Game' a bit ago... I started it on the bus this morning, and some guy was like "that book is amazing." He was really (really) enthusiastic, so we shall see.

[slam]

that's funny. i was reading that book on the bus from new york to boston (chinatown express!), and some girl was like 'that book is amazing!'

i liked it a lot, but i'm kind of surprised how many people have read it.

[bangg trimm]

i'm okay with the social libertarianism aspect of objectivism, but the uber-capitalism really throws me off. i'm a big believer in marx's "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". obviously, pure communism has never been proven to work, but i'm ok with a nice socialist capitalism middle ground, with progressive taxes and medicare. i want socialized health care. i want socialized insurance.

but in rand's world, those born handicapped or poor can just as well fuck off and die. sure sure, all of her main characters make out well, because they're usually people of extraordinary ability and charisma, but what about the other 99% of the population?

and don't worry diamond, you'll hit the speeches soon.


when i think of ayn rand, i think of one defensive woman. she seemed so afraid of things like communism and collectivism.

personally, i believe that individuality and community/collectivism are fundamentally intwined in a paradoxical relationship in which you a) cannot have one without the other and b) you have to be individual to be of worth to a community but there is not a drop of individuality possible without relation to the group. you are always going in (at least) two directions at once. interdependence is an unpredictable reality.

as far as pure communism "never been proven to work": technically, neither has pure capitalism. it has been protectionist and subsidized from the beginning. adam smith's theory has never played out, and neither has marx's. i'm not sure either have even had a decent go. what's irksome to me is the pretense that capitalism has worked, and it's demonized "counterpart" has always failed. it's just another story people tell themselves to fit things into a dualistic, good vs. evil melodrama to make life seem pat. real life is messy. relationships are complex. people hate that.

[False Alarm]

mr and mrs smith in the mofucka.

http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2006/04/28/brad_pitt_aamp_angelina_jolie_to_star_in

[slam]

well, at least a little star power will bring more people in to see it.

i think they're both damn fine actors. angelina just needs to star in a few more movies where she doesn't have to wear tight clothes the whole time (girl, interrupted was a good role)

[mrjohnchimpo]

angelina just needs to star in a few more movies where she doesn't have to wear tight clothes the whole time

hehe. i disagree.

[hotfoot]

i haven't read shrugged, but from what i've heard/read rand sounds like some sort of free market apologist crazy woman. now, don't get me wrong, i'm realistic about a lot of shit, so i can get down with the market. it's actually fun to do at school. but, christ, man, i've never had anything close to an urge to read her shit. am i wrong? is she actually droppin' decent shit? what's the fucking draw? i mean, the book's like a thousand pages long.

[slam]

what's the fucking draw?

well, as far as writers go, ayn rand sucks. i think her characters are flat, and her storytelling is very, very long winded.

and while i may completely disagree with her 'free market apologist' theories, they are very, very well presented and argued. but more than that, the stories in her books are just so epic, so grand. 'atlas shrugged' had me turning pages just to find out who the hell this john galt guy was, and what he was going to do.

it's well worth reading at least one of her books (atlas is my favorite). i'd make a point to just skim through the long-as-fuck speeches her characters slip into. she really belabors her points to death. if you're just interested in her theory of objectivism, the short book 'anthem' pretty much nails it, without all the speechifying.

[Soul Queen]

I've read the fountainhead. It was pretty good. It may be all the Ayn Rand I need.

[hotfoot]

well, as far as writers go, ayn rand sucks. i think her characters are flat, and her storytelling is very, very long winded.

and while i may completely disagree with her 'free market apologist' theories, they are very, very well presented and argued. but more than that, the stories in her books are just so epic, so grand. 'atlas shrugged' had me turning pages just to find out who the hell this john galt guy was, and what he was going to do.

it's well worth reading at least one of her books (atlas is my favorite). i'd make a point to just skim through the long-as-fuck speeches her characters slip into. she really belabors her points to death. if you're just interested in her theory of objectivism, the short book 'anthem' pretty much nails it, without all the speechifying.

alright, i hear that. i can appreciate something for a great plot. then, again, i very rarely get at amazingly plotted stories. i'll keep her shit in the chamber, though, in case i change my mind, which i inevitably will.

[bangg trimm]

I've read the fountainhead. It was pretty good. It may be all the Ayn Rand I need.

but have you seen the film version (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041386/) with gary cooper?! arrrgh! a friend made me watch it one evening.. i think he just wanted to see me twitch.or maybe he really liked watching the actors speechify. come to think of it, i don't really know if his enjoyment was actual enthusiasm or ironic pleasure.

[paul]

Just saw this quote, and thought of you guys...

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. -Paul Krugman

Have a good weekend, everybody!