OK, let's hear it...

[MsAnthrope]

Immigration, legal and illegal. Talk.

[larryhead]

Necessary :twocents:

[MsAnthrope]

Necessary :twocents:
Hm, not the lively discussion I envisioned. But I appreciate your input.
Maybe I'll do some laundry.

[JVO]

Ok Mrs. A. I had to contemplate this for a day. Keep in mind that I am an expert on absolutely none of the issues involved.

JVO's IMMIGRATION PLAN FOR THE UNITED STATES AS IT PERTAINS TO THOSE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS COMING FROM MEXICO AND OTHER PLACES:

1. The border between Mexico and the United States must be immediately sealed. If this means activating National Guard Troops, or Military Personnel so be it. If we need to construct a wall or a series of fences or a moat with a dragon in it, whatever we need to do to restrict access to checkpoints must be done. Clearly Mexico is not going to do anything to stop this problem, so we must take on the responsibility. If we don't solve this first, nothing else that we do is going to matter. All border enforcement must be run through the Federal Government. Local and State law enforcement (along with vigilante groups) will no longer have any jurisdiction in the prosecution of illegals for coming over the border without the notification and permission of the federal government.

2. All illegal immigrants who are currently residing in the U.S. have until September 1st, 2006 (or another date if more pratical) to report themselves to the federal government (via dmv or libraries, or courthouses, or however is easiest). Once they report, a background check will be run on their history, both in the U.S. and in the country of origin (as much as this is possible). The immigrants will also be required to prove that they are currently employed in the U.S. or are in the process of finding work in the U.S. Assuming that the background check comes back clean of any illegal activity for the last five years (or any violent illegal activity in the last 10) these immigrants will be issued a "guest worker visa" for a period of two years and their names will be put on a list that is circulated to all police stations across the country. If a background check does not come back clean, then the immigrants will be immediately deported back to their country of origin and their names will be place on a "denied worker visa" list that will also be issued to lawenforcement and border officers. For those who receive a "Guest Worker Visa" they are free to work and live anywhere within the United States that they wish, with the understanding that they will keep the INS informed of any address changes. Employers of "Guest Workers" are required to pay immigrants at least the minimum wage and must follow all employment protection laws that are in place to protect the rights and safety of workers. These "Guest Workers" will not be issued social security numbers and will also not be subject to federal or state taxes (except sales tax), but they also will be denied unemployment benefits, social security, medicare, medicade, or SOI. If they pass the required drivers test they may be issued a driver's license in accordance with the laws of the state in which they currently live. Immigrants with children must enroll their children in school (and schools must accept them) and are subject to all legislation geared toward children. During this 2 year period, Guest Workers will not be subject to the protections granted to U.S citizens under the Constitution of the United States. If at any point, a Guest Worker is convicted of a felony, the INS may deport them back to their country of origin. The INS must form an appeals committee if the Immigrants choose to appeal their conviction, but the immigrant will not be given legal representation nor will they be protected by due process or other protections of the U.S. legal system. If the conviction is upheld by the INS Appeal Committee, a notation will be made stating that Guest Worker status was revoked because of (whatever) conviction and immigrant was deported. In cases of serious violent crimes the U.S. will extradite the criminal to their country of origin with the assumption that said criminal will face their prison sentence in their country of origin. At any time in the future if that immigrant is caught in American or trying to enter America they will immediately be detained and will be incarcerated for their original conviction (if not having done so in country of origin) plus 5 years for attempting to re-enter the country illegally. If the conviction is overturned by the appeals committee then the Guest Worker Visa is maintained, and all reports of the offense will be expunged. After 18 months, a Guest Worker will be required to attend citizenship classes and all other requirements that legal immigrants must go through to attain citizenship. Once these requirements are met, the Guest Worker Visa will expire and U.S. Citizenship will be granted. If a Guest Worker fails to attend these classes or does not keep INS updated on their current address, after a warning, the INS will have the right to deport the illegal alien.

3.) Any illegal immigrants who have children who were born in the United States will be granted a "Parent of a Citizen" Visa. The rules for these people will be the same as the "Guest Worker" accept that the child will be elligible for Federal and State benefits including Medicare, Medicade etc. The child also will be protected under the United States Constitution The parents will not be eligible for these benefits until they have been granted American Citizenship. If a citizens parents are deported, the child may either be placed in the care of social services or go back to country of origin with the parent. This choice will be up to the parent.

4.) After the September 1st deadline, any illegal immigrants who failed to apply for the Guest Worker Visa will be denied the opportunity and will be deported back to their country of origin. They will noted as "Failed to apply for Worker Status" and they will be denied the chance of reentering the country.

5.) After the September 1st deadline, any Company or Person who knowingly employs an illegal alien will have the alien taken from them and deported and the company will be fined $5000.00 for every month after the September 1st deadline that they employed the alien. If this fine is not payed, the government has the right to place leins on any property that the person/business may have to recoup the money under the U.S. legal system. After the deadline, if an illegal alien applies for a job, the employer is required to obtain as much information as possible and notify the INS of the incident.

6.) Any alien after September 1st who tries to illegally enter the country will be turned back and all of their information (if there is any) will be noted by INS. Repeat offenders will be prosecuted and detained for a period of no less than 1 year.

7.) We must quintuple the number of citizenship applications that we accept from Mexico and other hispanic nations, giving more opportunities for people to legally immigrate to the United States. A special priortiy will be given to those who already have family living in the U.S. either legally or under the Guest Worker or Parent of a Citizen visas.

Again, none of this will matter or work if we are unable to secure the border by the September 1st deadline (or whatever deadline is pratical).

So there you have it. I am sure that I forgot some things (or at least forgot to outline them), and I am sure there are many shortcomings in my plan but that is my plan.

Any problems?

[mrjohnchimpo]

JVO 4 Prez!

[duckplucker]

i have a story.

i know a guy who built his own house. the only part he outsourced was the roofing. he did this because illegal mexican immigrants will do that hard, dangerous work for peanuts.

illegal farm labor also allows small business operators to make a profit where as without this cheap source of labor they would lose thier farms.

i am just saying this is how it is. and this is how it will continue to be. we need to do all of those things that jvo mentions. but illegal immigrant work is an important part of our economy. illegals do work that americans won't.

in the words of woody guthrie, "... both sides of the river, we've died just the same! ..... you won't have a name when you ride the big airplane. the radio says they are just deportees."

[Soul Queen]

Jvo,
You sound like some psycho vigilante about the border patrol.

I think the real problem is with the corporations that recruit illegal immigrants. A measley $5000.00 fine is nothing to those corporations. The penalities for employing and recruiting should be fitting to prove a point.

I have nothing against people wanting to move to this country and to make a new start.

As per your plan, right now, parents of Children born in the United States can obtain citizenship, when their kids turn 18.

I believe the United States does have strict rules when it comes to becoming a citizen. Just to obtain a visa to visit the US (from such countries as Belize, Ethopia, Belgium etc) the US looks at bank statements, family history, birth, death, marriage certificates, the reason, occupation, etc. Even with all of this it denies entry to alot of people.

I am sure that with immigration the same rules apply.

We should be looking at the source of the problem, not penalizing the individuals that come here. In many cases treating them like criminals.

Doesn't the United States stand for Human Rights...
In some cases this is a reason people come to this country. Isn't this why we "freed" the Iraqi people.

Kicking all of the illegal immigrants out of the country would be interesting to enforce. Where are you get the budget to enforce such a thing? To set-up the administration to do back ground checks would take at least 2-5 years to set-up. (Computer equipment, appropriate software, people to do the checking, all of the paperwork, verifying the facts, training everyone, etc)

Also, I believe that illegal immigrants are a portion of our economy. Who would work in the meat factories, work in the fields, provide janitorial service? (this is just the ones that jump to the top of my head. Many people who are in the country illegally take lower paying jobs.)

So in short. Punish the corporations that invite these individuals into the country and want to pay them nothing. If that avenue wasn't available, would we have some many individuals wanting to come to the United States?

[mrjohnchimpo]

DP for Prez!

SQ for Prez!

ahem, sorry. i'm fickle.

i think it's kinda a pointless thing to argue about. any solution would be too expensive and take too long to implement. everything is going to stay exactly how it is right now, forever. that's my call.

[Talking Sandwich]

I had read that most illegals from mexico dont even come over the border. They come by plane and just never go home. I mean we're still gonna allow mexicans to visit right?

The border thing is just silly imo.

[mrjohnchimpo]

i thought about doing that when i went to ireland. but then they turned the firehose on me and i had to leave.

[duckplucker]

to clarify my position:

jvo is correct in stating all of the proper steps our gov't should take. and i would vote for him, even if he ran as a republican.

i think the subject of immigration is just a grey area cuz normally good and law abiding people will break the laws if it means helping thier family members.

" why are all of these good friends
all scattered like dry leaves....
goodbye to my one
goodbye rosalia
adios mis amigos
my susie maria
you wont have a name when you ride the big airplane
all they will call you will be deportees."
- more woody guthrie

GO REDBIRDS !!!

[MsAnthrope]

Ok Mrs. A. I had to contemplate this for a day. Keep in mind that I am an expert on absolutely none of the issues involved.

JVO's IMMIGRATION PLAN FOR THE UNITED STATES AS IT PERTAINS TO THOSE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS COMING FROM MEXICO AND OTHER PLACES:

..........

Any problems?

I'm impressed.
To be honest, I don't know what I think about illegal immigration.
Some hot topics seem to be:

a) Illegal immigrants do jobs that no one else would do.
Is that true? Or do they just do them for lower wages? I keep hearing that there's been a sharp increase in illegal immigrants over the past few years... who was doing The Work We Will Not Do then? And more important, how much were they getting paid?

b) Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes.
I've read, from various government and news sources that, although there's no way to know for sure, around 50% of immigrants do, in fact, pay ssi and medicare taxes. I had to talk to a banker to figure out how this works. I'm still not exactly sure, but it had something to do with taxpayer ID numbers.
If that's the case, isn't it like people are paying rent to be here? They give us a few bucks in ssi that they'll never collect, we let them live and work here.

c) Illegal immigrants don't want to assimilate into "our culture."
I think any immigrant who leaves their native country, as an adult, will have a hard time adjusting to a new culture. Does it matter if a person's status is legal or not? I think after a generation, it's a non-issue. Even if it is.. it's not as if America is one big happy melting pot of a nation. Is it really so bad that people speak another language in my presence?

d) Random thoughts... I want to say "What's the big deal?" We are a 'nation of immigrants,' right? Immigration laws keep getting stricter. So while our great grandparents (well, not mine, but you know) were able to come over take a history test and settle down, now a person has to prove they're not a criminal, prove they're not supporting another country, prove they're X,Y, and Z. In effect, prove they are better people than those of us who were born here.
Our economy is dependent on illegal immigrants... is this a good thing that we depend on a class of people that can't unionize, don't make minimum wage, and have to put up with constant shit because the threat of deportation is always there?
Millions of people took to the streets to call attention to their situation. I couldn't help but think, what if illegal immigrants put that effort into fixing their problems at home - if, in fact, they came here because they couldn't make a decent living at home?
And what the fuck is up with these vigilante people? There's a guy in Western Mass who spends his days videotaping people who he somehow - magically? - knows are illegal immigrants. He puts their pictures online an sends information to INS. What the fuck? Doesn't he have a job? He didn't have any Europeans up on his Web site...
I think if anything is going to set off a serious altercation it's going to be racially motivated. It's easy to see someone who is brown and doesn't speak your language and assume they are an illegal immigrant. And I'm just saying, I keep hearing, all of a sudden, how hispanics are the largest minority group. Be afraid!
Keep an eye out for Birth of a Nation part dos.


Finally, I thought this was funny:

Communist Party and Similar Membership. A person cannot become a citizen who, at any time during a period of ten years just before filing a petition for naturalization in court, has been a member of or connected with the Communist Party, or a similar party within or outside the United States.

[MsAnthrope]

i think it's kinda a pointless thing to argue about. any solution would be too expensive and take too long to implement. everything is going to stay exactly how it is right now, forever. that's my call.

I never think it's pointless to argue about anything... but I agree with you. I, too, don't think anything will change in the near future.

[JVO]

Jvo,
You sound like some psycho vigilante about the border patrol.

I think the real problem is with the corporations that recruit illegal immigrants. A measley $5000.00 fine is nothing to those corporations. The penalities for employing and recruiting should be fitting to prove a point.

I have nothing against people wanting to move to this country and to make a new start.

As per your plan, right now, parents of Children born in the United States can obtain citizenship, when their kids turn 18.

I believe the United States does have strict rules when it comes to becoming a citizen. Just to obtain a visa to visit the US (from such countries as Belize, Ethopia, Belgium etc) the US looks at bank statements, family history, birth, death, marriage certificates, the reason, occupation, etc. Even with all of this it denies entry to alot of people.

I am sure that with immigration the same rules apply.

We should be looking at the source of the problem, not penalizing the individuals that come here. In many cases treating them like criminals.

Doesn't the United States stand for Human Rights...
In some cases this is a reason people come to this country. Isn't this why we "freed" the Iraqi people.

Kicking all of the illegal immigrants out of the country would be interesting to enforce. Where are you get the budget to enforce such a thing? To set-up the administration to do back ground checks would take at least 2-5 years to set-up. (Computer equipment, appropriate software, people to do the checking, all of the paperwork, verifying the facts, training everyone, etc)

Also, I believe that illegal immigrants are a portion of our economy. Who would work in the meat factories, work in the fields, provide janitorial service? (this is just the ones that jump to the top of my head. Many people who are in the country illegally take lower paying jobs.)

So in short. Punish the corporations that invite these individuals into the country and want to pay them nothing. If that avenue wasn't available, would we have some many individuals wanting to come to the United States?
Great Responses!!!!!

Alright I am going to respond to both SQ and DP at the same time and somehow make some sort of sense.

First of all my Immigration program is far more liberal than Pres. Bush's and Pres. Bush is being killed for how liberal his plan is. One thing that you must keep in mind is that this plan must be approved by Congress so you must find some type of compromise that Dems and Reps can accept. Honestly there is no way my bill would ever pass, but I did try to consider both sides. SQ what are you proposing that we do? Do you think that your bill would ever pass Congress?

Secondly, both DP and SQ made references to the fact that these illegals are doing jobs that American citizens will not. I think this is completely false. Both of my brothers have worked in construction their entire working lives, but are finding it extremely difficult to find/maintain employment in their field of expertise because they are competing with aliens who will do the same job for half the price. Because Americans must be paid at least the minimum wage, American's are automatically at a disadvantage when it comes to competing with illegals. Like the rest of the SouthWest, Oklahoma has had such an influx of illegals that many of the original residents have lost their jobs due to the hiring of someone who will work for far less and without benefits. Also if people will work at American Recreation (DP has my back on this one!), they will work on a small farm or in virtually any industry. If a farm or a factory can not operate without hiring illegals, then they will go out of business. This sounds cruel, but it is evolution and capitalism. Also who are working these so called "jobs that Americans won't work" in Montana and Idaho and Alaska and other states with no immigration problem? Obviously somebody is (unless there are no laborers or janitors working in the entire state of Montana), and therefore Americans will work these jobs if paid a competitive wage for what it is that they are doing. The primary responsibility of Congress and the President of the United States is to protect the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of citizens of the United States. Therefore the government has a mandate and a responsibility to protect the jobs of those that are being taken away.

Thirdly, the fine. I would be open to increasing this number but there may be problems with that. A big percentage of people who employ illegal aliens are either small business owners or single individuals (for domestic services, day care etc.) If a couple in California hires an illegal immigrant to watch their children for four months (after the deadline) they would be required to pay $20,000 and would lose their day care provider. Also think about DP's friend, he would be required to pay $5000 for every single illegal person he hired for that job. Since he would not be able to pay, he would have all his property foreclosed upon and be stripped of his assets. This fee could bankrupt many individuals and small businesses. In the case of large corporations, this fee is not intended to be completely punative. Instead by making it more expense to hire illegal immigrants it would hopefully persuade these corporations to follow existing laws, and hire legal citizens or guest workers.

Forthly, I have no problem with people wanting to move to this country and make a better lives for themselves either. That is why I am submitting that we quintuple the number of people who are issued legal visas, not kicking out illegals who are already in America (unless they are dangerous), and make the process of citizenship for those illegals already in the country as quick and painless as possible while assuring the safety of the citizens living in the community. There would be an expense associated with setting up a system to enter all of these people and do background checks, but this system is mostly already in place at DMV's. Also there are many many sources on line where you can do background checks and credit checks for little to no cost.

Fifthly, I don't understand what you are saying about "corporations recruiting illegal immigrants". Do you think that Microsoft, GM, and AT&T have corporate officers living in Mexico trying to convince people to illegally immigrate to the U.S. so that they can work as janitors? That is not the way big corporations work. If a big corporation wants to save money by using foreign labor, they simply open a big office in Mexico City hire people for 1/5 of the amount their American counterparts earn and not be subject to any of the laws or regulations that protect workers in America. We have seen this in action with all of the programming and telemarketing jobs that have been sent to India. Obviously this is a major problem, but it doesn't really have anything to do with immigration. The reason why illegal immigrants come to Amercan is to seek better lives, but in doing so they are hurting the lives of American citizens. Also, because of how open our border is there is very little chance of getting caught crossing the border and no reprecusions if you are caught. There is no way the American government should stand by and let the lives of our citizens be hurt because of illegal activity that they are responsible for controlling. Also it is possible, albeit difficult, to immigrate legally to this country (and this process should be made easier). I have six cousins who were all born in Mexico and who legally obtained American citizenship. Now it took several years and they had to jump through a million hoops, but every single one them is now an American Citizen. So it is possible to become a citizen of this country legally, it just requires time and preserverance.

Sixthly, according to the Department of Labor, the unemployment rates in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and Oklahoma are all skyrocketing and represent the highest per capital in the country. The reason for this is illegal immigration. Arizona and New Mexico have both declared a State of Emergency because the problem has gotten so bad. We were all horrified to see the lack of response from the Federal Government revolving around Hurrican Katrina, yet we ignore the screams of help that we are getting from the entire Southwestern part of the country. Just because there is no flooding and CNN is not circling in helicopters, does not mean that is any less disastarous than Hurican Katrina.

[JVO]

My reply was too long for one post

Seventhly, I believe in human rights above all else. That was the main motivation behind many of the policies I proposed. It is difficult to find some type of balance between protecting the human rights of American citizens (our primary responsibility) and protecting the human rights of those who broke international law by entering into our country illegally. Because hiring illegal aliens is illegal, employers do not pay a competitive wage, offer workmans compensation insurance, follow maximum hour requirements, follow overtime pay requirements, or follow age limit requirements. Therefore under the current system we are exploiting these people and forcing them to work in conditions that the United States Supreme Court ruled as cruel. Under my plan, all employers would be required to do all that I mentioned above, and after 2 years, the workers would become citizens and would be entitled to all of the benefits of being an American citizen. Considering this would be their reward for doing something that was illegal in the first place, I think this is more than kind. Under my plan, both the human rights of illegal immigrants and American citizens would be greatly improved.

Eightly, my plan makes it much easier for parents of American citizens to become American citizens than current legislation. Currently if an illegal immigrant has a 5 year old American born child, they must live illegally for 13 years to automatically be granted citizenship of their own. Under my plan they would only have to wait two years and would be granted a "Parent of an American Citizen".

Finally, I am not advocating "kicking out all immigrants". To the contrary I am allowing all illegal immigrants to remain in the United States and have a fast path to citizenship provided they are not a risk to the country or their local communities. The only way we will be able to do this though, is if we find some way to close the border.

Paying for this program would be expensive, but as unemployment rates decline (thus more money for sales tax and personal property tax) and the number of people collecting unemployment declines, the program would not cost nearly as much as one would think. Also, once all of the illegals became American citizens they would become tax payers, thus adding millions every year to the National coffers. And if we were able to contain the borders this expense would be minimal compared to the benefit it would have.

[JVO]

to clarify my position:

jvo is correct in stating all of the proper steps our gov't should take. and i would vote for him, even if he ran as a republican.

GO REDBIRDS !!!

Thanks brother. I could put you in charge of the Drug Enforcement Agency!

:lol: :headbang: :thumbsup:

[bangg trimm]

Great Responses!!!!!

Alright I am going to respond to both SQ and DP at the same time and somehow make some sort of sense.

First of all my Immigration program is far more liberal than Pres. Bush's and Pres. Bush is being killed for how liberal his plan is. One thing that you must keep in mind is that this plan must be approved by Congress so you must find some type of compromise that Dems and Reps can accept. Honestly there is no way my bill would ever pass, but I did try to consider both sides. SQ what are you proposing that we do? Do you think that your bill would ever pass Congress?

Secondly, both DP and SQ made references to the fact that these illegals are doing jobs that American citizens will not. I think this is completely false. Both of my brothers have worked in construction their entire working lives, but are finding it extremely difficult to find/maintain employment in their field of expertise because they are competing with aliens who will do the same job for half the price. Because Americans must be paid at least the minimum wage, American's are automatically at a disadvantage when it comes to competing with illegals. Like the rest of the SouthWest, Oklahoma has had such an influx of illegals that many of the original residents have lost their jobs due to the hiring of someone who will work for far less and without benefits. Also if people will work at American Recreation (DP has my back on this one!), they will work on a small farm or in virtually any industry. If a farm or a factory can not operate without hiring illegals, then they will go out of business. This sounds cruel, but it is evolution and capitalism. Also who are working these so called "jobs that Americans won't work" in Montana and Idaho and Alaska and other states with no immigration problem? Obviously somebody is (unless there are no laborers or janitors working in the entire state of Montana), and therefore Americans will work these jobs if paid a competitive wage for what it is that they are doing. The primary responsibility of Congress and the President of the United States is to protect the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of citizens of the United States. Therefore the government has a mandate and a responsibility to protect the jobs of those that are being taken away.

Thirdly, the fine. I would be open to increasing this number but there may be problems with that. A big percentage of people who employ illegal aliens are either small business owners or single individuals (for domestic services, day care etc.) If a couple in California hires an illegal immigrant to watch their children for four months (after the deadline) they would be required to pay $20,000 and would lose their day care provider. Also think about DP's friend, he would be required to pay $5000 for every single illegal person he hired for that job. Since he would not be able to pay, he would have all his property foreclosed upon and be stripped of his assets. This fee could bankrupt many individuals and small businesses. In the case of large corporations, this fee is not intended to be completely punative. Instead by making it more expense to hire illegal immigrants it would hopefully persuade these corporations to follow existing laws, and hire legal citizens or guest workers.

Forthly, I have no problem with people wanting to move to this country and make a better lives for themselves either. That is why I am submitting that we quintuple the number of people who are issued legal visas, not kicking out illegals who are already in America (unless they are dangerous), and make the process of citizenship for those illegals already in the country as quick and painless as possible while assuring the safety of the citizens living in the community. There would be an expense associated with setting up a system to enter all of these people and do background checks, but this system is mostly already in place at DMV's. Also there are many many sources on line where you can do background checks and credit checks for little to no cost.

Fifthly, I don't understand what you are saying about "corporations recruiting illegal immigrants". Do you think that Microsoft, GM, and AT&T have corporate officers living in Mexico trying to convince people to illegally immigrate to the U.S. so that they can work as janitors? That is not the way big corporations work. If a big corporation wants to save money by using foreign labor, they simply open a big office in Mexico City hire people for 1/5 of the amount their American counterparts earn and not be subject to any of the laws or regulations that protect workers in America. We have seen this in action with all of the programming and telemarketing jobs that have been sent to India. Obviously this is a major problem, but it doesn't really have anything to do with immigration. The reason why illegal immigrants come to Amercan is to seek better lives, but in doing so they are hurting the lives of American citizens. Also, because of how open our border is there is very little chance of getting caught crossing the border and no reprecusions if you are caught. There is no way the American government should stand by and let the lives of our citizens be hurt because of illegal activity that they are responsible for controlling. Also it is possible, albeit difficult, to immigrate legally to this country (and this process should be made easier). I have six cousins who were all born in Mexico and who legally obtained American citizenship. Now it took several years and they had to jump through a million hoops, but every single one them is now an American Citizen. So it is possible to become a citizen of this country legally, it just requires time and preserverance.

Sixthly, according to the Department of Labor, the unemployment rates in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and Oklahoma are all skyrocketing and represent the highest per capital in the country. The reason for this is illegal immigration. Arizona and New Mexico have both declared a State of Emergency because the problem has gotten so bad. We were all horrified to see the lack of response from the Federal Government revolving around Hurrican Katrina, yet we ignore the screams of help that we are getting from the entire Southwestern part of the country. Just because there is no flooding and CNN is not circling in helicopters, does not mean that is any less disastarous than Hurican Katrina.


i don't know the specifics of the situations being discussed, but i have a few thoughts, and a few direct responses:

with regard to point 5, i have also read of corporate recruitment of immigrant labor--but not in the scenarios you bring up. more of the corporate farming and meatpacking industries advertising "well-paying" --it is, after all, relative. each one of us is RICH on a global scale-- jobs via spanish radio ads, etc. but the transnational outsourcing/plant relocation also occurs, to be sure.

as to point 6 "The reason for this is illegal immigration" -- i think i know the gist of your argument, but i also think it is a gross oversimplification of a multi-valent system. ONE reason is that illegal immigrants are flooding the market. Another reason is that certain jobs are undervalued and therefore underpaid (by most U.S. standards) and are undesirable to many. Despite the dependence of the world on these simple workers, they are not valued. there is a bias against the poor and "what poor people do". (i do have a friend that used to run union campaigns with janitors in big buildings.. ooh, those general strikes could be effective! sitting in a skyscraper fucking filled with refuse--it brings a tear to the eye.) there are many other pieces to the puzzle that belong here, i am sure.. the southwest is largely a desert conversion project as well as a vacation and retirement area, yes? .. the ramifications of its past also play into its current situation.



by the way, do the unemployment statistics include retirees? out of work hollywood actors? the glut of college graduates who can't find a job in their trained profession yet prefer not to travel picking grapes? people who file with employment agencies? people who do not? do they include the large numbers of layoffs so generously granted in tandem with huge bonuses for the CEO's who have so cleverly automated or outsourced these positions?

it seems to me that it's a bit easy to pigeonhole immigration as the problem. it definitely adds to it, and it is somewhat avoidable. but so, for example, is the CEO bonus/layoff problem. they both contribute.




also interesting that many jobs are predicated on ideas and speculation--like the stock market, real estate, or glamour trades-- than on concretes. i have another friend who works in nyc as a paralegal for an immigration lawyer who specializes in persons who are stylists, models, etc. really strange.. how do you prove that someone who does layout for a fashion magazine really has the exceptional level of skill that no american layout artist could match? and does it even fucking matter? are these immigrants on a different playing field, and why? because they can afford a lawyer? because of their economic class? because of their race? because large amounts of people will demand their entertainment magazines, but couldn't give a shit where their food comes from?

i dunno..

bt

[bubz_bluez]

illegals do work that americans won't.---duck plucker

he is totally right no one wants to be a maid or serve rich people or work in factories........we need them it does take away from us at times but it is important that we remeber that we passed up that shitty job at mcdonalds and they did not

bubz

[Soul Queen]

Thanks BT for describing what I was thinking! :D

[duckplucker]

"let me in
immigration man.
i cant toe your line today
i cant see it any way.
let me in
immigration man."
-csn

how could you possibly seal off every inch of the mexican border.
will there be armed guards patroling every 50 yds along the rio grande?
what about out in nm and az. its just thousands of miles of open desert.

i say the solution is easy immigration. you know how a male registers at the age of 18. mexicans come in. sign up. viola. you are a citizen.

every conservative will say, "its just not that simple...."
but the system that is in place now obviously doesnt work so ....

[Soul Queen]

Easy registration....hmmmm
while we're at it, we can send all the male immigrants into the military directly.

It would solve the low recruitment for the army, and find jobs for the immigrants.

Bet they wouldn't want into our country then!:expert:

*please note the above is sarcasm*

[JVO]

Cool more great replies!!!

A few comments:

I always forget that big business is the root of all evil in America and that it is impossible to expect anyone to have personal responsibility. Certainly business is part of the problem, but that is the reason for the $5000 fine. By making it more expensive to hire illegals, Corporations will no longer have any motivation to do so.

Who works the "undesirable jobs" in states with no immigration problems?

Sealing off the entire border would be a major problem and might prove impossible, but certainly we can do a better job than we are now. The reason for all the vigilante groups is because farmers with land on the border can sit in their kitchen and watch illegals scamper illegally into the country. They feel that the Government is not fulfilling their obligation to stop this and therefore have taken matters into there own hands. I am not excusing this action, I am merely saying that shows how bad the problem is. In many locations in Texas and Arizona Local Law Enforcement officials actually work with these vigilante groups because they know that they are greatly outmanned.

If we let anyone who wanted to enter the U.S. our population would double in 10 years.

BT: I don't really know how unemployment rates are determined, but as long as they are done the same way everytime I don't think the issues you mentioned would explain the increase. I know in Denver, where there is a huge illegal immigration problem, the mayor, the citizens, and the workers would all tell you that the reason for the high unemployment is partly due to illegal immigration.

Many countries, especially in Europe, have mandatory military service. America does not. In America, people who join the military do so because they love their country and because they are willing to put their lives on the line to protect all of us. They also know that military service can help them to vastly improve their lives and the lives of there family. Also I suspect that life in the American military would still be better than life in a barrio in Mexico City.

Clearly, almost everyone doesn't believe that illegal immigration is a problem. I don't understand that at all. It seems to be the same thing as all of the people who think that global warming is not a problem. Despite all the facts, because it has not directly impacted our lives, we believe that it is not a problem.

[Soul Queen]

Is it a problem? Or has it always been a problem that no one ever paid attention to?

I think its the latter.

I don't believe sealing our borders is even possible. Coming up with viable solutions is very difficult. I don't believe the DMV has enough manpower to process all of the applications that you had discussed. As to equipment and software...I work in a large organization where we changed our financial system June 2004, it is now April 2006 and everything STILL doesn't work correctly. It takes alot of tweeking. It is predicted that MAYBE by 2007 everything will be working correctly.

Plus anything to do with the government involves bids, contracts, a million meetings, 6 or more months to hire someone, 6 or more months to train, plus the crazy screening process, poor pay = high turnover rate.... etc.

If these individuals couldn't find a job so easy would they want to come? Aside from political refugees?

I have sympathy about immigration. I went to a Movie opening in the Cuban institute last year. The movie was about rafting to America from Cuba. The institute had one of the rafts that someone had used. It was rickety. I can't believe anyone makes it floating on that in the ocean. They also had lots of letters from people who never made it. Its very sad.

Our system is just backwards. We make horribly difficult to obtain a visa to enter the country, but after you are here (whether you came legally or illegally) you can slip into the system to become a citizen.

Maybe our system for providing visas and greencards needs to be changed...I need to give it more thought.

Good solutions?

[duckplucker]

i'm telling you!!!!

just sign em up!!

what's the problem now? illegal immigrants.
cuz they dont pay taxes, dont get minimum wage etc.

make them citizens. then the problem is solved.

how is this any different than ellis island??
my ancestors came from ireland cuz of the potato famine.
someone in my family went through ellis island and tried to tell the clerk his family name was coalminer. the clerk misheard and so my name is spelled colmer. all my ancestors had to do was show up on a boat, pass through the office at ellis island, have a documented record made, and viola, they were citizens. why is is any different if you are from mexico?
yes our population would rapidly double. just like it did back when european immigrants came flooding through ellis island.
but would you rather have a million new CITIZENS or a million new ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

it is just made so complicated by our modern system of gov't which is so flawed i will join the first revolution that comes along.

topple the machine!!
fight the power!!
take back our country from the computers!!!!

jod

[zero2056]

1) Make 'em citizens -- ya can stay if you pay uncle sam just like everyone else. If ya can't do that, then kill the income tax for individuals (leave it for corporations) and go to a national sales tax. If ya buy somethin... bam.. you're taxed. Exclude food and other essentials (not McDonalds.. real food.. hell tax fast food at a higher rate) from the nat'l sales tax so its not overly regressive (it'll still be regressive).

2) Learn the fucking language. English is the national language for a reason.... shit... a large portion of the world speaks it. Stop making concessions in schools and other areas to cater to spanish speaking individuals. Sink or swim -- a concept that some are familiar with if ya floated over on a raft.

3) Stop waving your damn country's flag once you sneak across. You used to be from Mexico? Congratulations! Thanks for playing. Now you're from the United States. Get used to it. The rest of the world despises you now too! :headbang: If ya loved Mexico/Puerto Rico/Cuba so much, then go back home, and try to improve the ol' alma mater, rather than flee to what you're visualizing as greener pastures.

-------

The problem is if you offer amnesty to all that are here, that'll open the floodgates.... "If the first wave was offered citizenship, so will I!"

Economics would tell us that the people will just keep on coming until, the standard of living balances out..... we'll either get worse from the large influx, or they'll get better -- if its close to as nice to live there.. no incentive to come here. In order for us to keep a high standard of living, we need to help bolster Mexico's standard of living rather than let the large flux of immigrants lower ours. I think we need to stop spending so much damn money over seas (Middle East... time for Israel to fend for itself (read sink or swim... guess what.... you're not wanted in the middle east... Majority rules.... find a new country... Antartica is free... ya stole the one your in now anyways), and make Mexico a better place to live.... start investing money there.... develop increased industry, which will create better paying jobs which equates to better residential areas which equates to higher property taxes, better education... its a self-feeding upward spiral, rather than the downward spiral I see it being now.

Also, if you develop the standard of living in Mexico and the rest of Latin America, it will create greater economic demand for goods/services produced in the United States.... lots of capital expenditures, but smart long-term economic play.

Oh yea... and Mexico has a decent amount of tasty oil.

Alright.. this bitter 27 year old is done. :banghead:

[hotfoot]

the idea of building a wall between us and mexico is the most embarrassing idea i've heard in a long time.

[slam]

i generally agree with most of what jvo's been saying, and duckplucker, and everyone else, but i must say, the wall idea is bad. it's simply undoable. it would be a gigantic waste of money and would probably be seriously ineffective as well.

just a few musings now:

make them citizens. then the problem is solved.

i completely agree with that. one of the problems a lot of european countries are facing right now (especially france) is that it's almost impossible for their immigrants to become citizens. it's like, you're welcome to come live with us, and work with us, but you'll never be a part of us. why do you think there are all these muslim extremists living in france, germany, spain, etc, and yet american muslims are generally pretty happy and well-adjusted members of society? it's because we accept them, we let them become citizens, and have every single right that every other american is granted.

2) Learn the fucking language. ...
3) Stop waving your damn country's flag once you sneak across.

living in chicago is the first time in my life where i've encountered situations (mostly in pilsen, where lainafair lives) where i have a hard time communicating with people in stores, on the street, etc because they speak a different language (spanish). but you know what? they mostly don't need english. everyone around them speaks spanish! at the school, at the store... the street signs are in spanish! why should they all have to learn english, just to talk to a random monolinguist like me on occasion? generally, i feel more like i should have learned a bit more spanish in high school or college...

as far as the flags go, i think that's a silly thing to be concerned about. people have flags for sports teams, why no the country's they're from? you can be an american and still have pride in where you came from. how many irish have an irish flag somewhere in their house?


In order for us to keep a high standard of living, we need to help bolster Mexico's standard of living rather than let the large flux of immigrants lower ours.

i couldn't agree more.

[JVO]

the idea of building a wall between us and mexico is the most embarrassing idea i've heard in a long time.

I agree that a wall is probably not doable. Although a wall of sorts already exists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_barrier#United_States

I do know that the Great Wall of China didn't work too well.

If we do nothing to control the number of illegals who come to America we are going to be facing this exact problem 10 years from now. Short of doing nothing, which hasn't worked to well in the past, I am not sure what we can do to stop this. Seems like something has to be done or this problem is just going to get worse.

I agree with Zero that helping Mexico is important, but the problem is the incredible corruption of the Mexican Government. Having spoken to my cousins (Mexican citizens) all they ever say about the government is how utterly corrupt it is and how money never gets to the people who need it. NAFTA should be helping the problem, but I am not sure that we have seen any results yet.

[JVO]

Something that I have been thinking about during this entire discussion is aren't we sort of creating a slave class in America. Granted these "slaves" come by there own choice (which shows how sad Mexico is), but still the similarities frighten me.

Illegals:

Have no representation
Have no Constitutional protections
Do not speak the language
Are often seperated from their families
Are not protected by labor rights legislation
Have no guarentee of workman's comp
Work jobs "noboody else will work"
Must work however many hours and under whatever conditions the employer dictates

Yet they come anyway. So since they are here illegally and by their own choice, should we not worry about it, or are we morally obligated to do something about it. If so what? and how do we pay for it?

[Soul Queen]

Something that I have been thinking about during this entire discussion is aren't we sort of creating a slave class in America. Granted these "slaves" come by there own choice (which shows how sad Mexico is), but still the similarities frighten me.

Illegals:

Have no representation
Have no Constitutional protections
Do not speak the language
Are often seperated from their families
Are not protected by labor rights legislation
Have no guarentee of workman's comp
Work jobs "noboody else will work"
Must work however many hours and under whatever conditions the employer dictates

Yet they come anyway. So since they are here illegally and by their own choice, should we not worry about it, or are we morally obligated to do something about it. If so what? and how do we pay for it?

Thats why the corporations love to hire them so much. (ConAgra etc.)

As per the language. I agree with slam that I wish I spoke spanish. It seems like it would be better for business. In most countries people speak more than one language. I think its kind of arrogant to expect everyone JUST to speak English.

[duckplucker]

i think it is entirely appropriate to expect people to speak english in our country.

our street signs should only be english. our schools should only cater to english speakers. if i went to mexico, i would fully expect to learn spanish.

we have no obligation to change our ways for immigrants. the obligation falls upon them to learn our language.

[hotfoot]

WWE: Illegal Mexican Wrestlers Taking Smackdowns American Wrestlers Don't Want (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46687)

22

[Soul Queen]

i think it is entirely appropriate to expect people to speak english in our country.

our street signs should only be english. our schools should only cater to english speakers. if i went to mexico, i would fully expect to learn spanish.

we have no obligation to change our ways for immigrants. the obligation falls upon them to learn our language.

Our schools should only cater to english speakers?!

Stating that our schools should only cater to english speaking citizens, your alienating a major portion of the population in many cities. These individuals are citizens of our country as well. Small children cannot help that they don't speak English because their parents just immigrated from another country. Education is part of what the US provides as a nation.

I don't understand the anomosity that is involved with this topic (English speaking part.) I think its important to promote diversity in school. Language is a part of culture. To me to state that English is the ONLY language, your basically stating One Nation Under Whiteness...Fuck everyone else that doesn't speak English. We're not doing business with you, We're not helping with your basic rights, We're not even going help find your way around with road signs...

I think many benefits would come from requiring individuals to learn Spanish or any second language proficiently. People who speak a second language have more job oppurtunities available to them. We are not an isolated country anymore. We work with many countries with education and business. It seems less arrogant to learn someone elses language and the way they communicate. Maybe it would provide a better image for the US. We are seen as know it all arrogant assholes.

Our country is made up of many individuals. I think that sometimes we forget that a major portion of our population is black and hispanic. They are part of the United States as well. They shouldn't have to give up a part of their culture to live in the US.

I don't believe that its really that big of deal to provide road signs in english and spanish. Education... English is our national language, but maybe our teachers should know spanish so they can provide better education to the students. I don't think the classes should be in spanish. But if there should are special schools or academies, that speak spanish. It's private and you don't have to send your children there.

[JVO]

Although I understand where SQ is coming from, I have to agree with Zero and DP on this one. I do not think that English as a National Language should be made a constitutional amendment (although it, along with Prohibiting Flag Burning, which is another dopey idea) would be passed in a heartbeat. A vast majority of Americans (all of whom were foreigners at one point) support an English as a National Language Amendment. Although I think this is not necessary, I do think that there are 3 things that a country must agree upon in order to be successful: Currency, Geography, and Language. If you do not have all three you are doomed to major problems.

I do believe that it is extremely important that English is the primary language used in public schools. The job of schools is to prepare people to lead a successful and productive life and if we do not ensure that all students are learning English we are only setting foreign language children up to fail. Here is an interesting quote I found:

The ability to understand English was so crucial to immigrant success that foreign-born workers with moderate-to-high levels English proficiency had higher earnings than native-born workers with the same degree of English proficiency. More important, data from the National Adult Literacy Survey found that immigrants with a low degree of English proficiency earned one-half of what those with a medium degree of proficiency earned and less than one-third of highly English proficient immigrants. (Source: Educational Testing Services, A Human Capital Concern: The Literary Proficiency of U.S. Immigrants, March 2004)

It will be sooooo much easier for an immigrant child to lead a successful life if they understand English. Suffice it to say, that very few people (especially human resources people) would be as understanding as SQ in employing people who do not speak English proficiently. 200 years ago, my family all spoke Dutch, but in order to adapt to life in America and in order to succeed as Americans they all learned to speak English.



Also don't you already have to take foreign language in highschool? I know I had to take four years of Spanish (or another language if I choose) in high school and 4 semesters of it in college. Honestly, 10 years later, I don't remember jack, and although I always did well in Spanish class I absolutely hated it, and saw no reason for it. Obviously there are many people who really enjoyed being forced to learn a foreign language and like SQ said that will open many doors to them, but why was I forced to waste 6 years of life on something that I will never use? I was fluent in Spanish by the time I completed my 4 semesters of college, but the reason why I forgot it is because I never used it.

SQ says: "It seems less arrogant to learn someone elses language and the way they communicate."

I agree and that is why if I was moving to Mexico, I would learn how to speak Spanish.

[Soul Queen]

I think I need to clarify that its important to learn how to speak English and Spanish. I'm not saying that we should get rid of English as our national language. I also don't think that English should be the only language spoken.

I think we need to take consideration that there is a hispanic population in our country. Most individuals when they come to this country do learn how to speak English. Almost everyone I interact with here in miami speaks spanish and english. I think the situation is with older individuals not knowing how to speak English. The younger generations know how to speak both. I would assume the older generation were not born in the United States, but immigrated here. Their kids pick up both languages.

English is important to learn with the job market. I have interviewed people that did not speak good english. It all depends on the type of job the individual is applying for. For my position it is essential to be able to communicate clearly. But if the person is qualified, and their English is a little rusty, they deserve the job. The more you speak the language the better it gets. It depends on the job.

[zero2056]

i think it is entirely appropriate to expect people to speak english in our country.

our street signs should only be english. our schools should only cater to english speakers. if i went to mexico, i would fully expect to learn spanish.

we have no obligation to change our ways for immigrants. the obligation falls upon them to learn our language.

Every last bit absolutely true. If I moved to Mexico (or pick your favorite country... pick Italy)... I would expect to learn how to speak Spanish/Italian. I woulnd't expect them to teach my children how to speak English (though in this case... they probably would considering is more or less the vernacular with French).

Sorry... its probably the midwesterner coming out in me, but teaching my children how to speak Spanish is not important to me, unless they really want to know. If they choose to take German, or whatever, fine... I liked that part of school, as it let you explore some other cultures, but just because they'res a large population of people who many are not even legally here doesn't make it a priority for me.

American = English, and it should be part of any test that people take to get citzenship. The most important part of most any job is communication. If you cannot effectively communicate, you're not worth much in the job market which is why you earn a lower wage.

I know that liberals support this idea of amnesty (or something close to it) more so than conservatives, but they also typically have a large support of organized labor unions when it comes to vote time. It'll be interesting to see where organized labor drops its hat (and I know recently that some have switched their vote to Conservative). Illegal immigration is a direct threat to the whole idea of Unions, and thus will effectively lower all wages given that the influx is great enough. Greater supply, steady demand... wages go down. Can't get an illegal alien legally into a Union, to keep the solidarity strong.

[hotfoot]

"But The Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. The Lord said, 'If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.'"

And that is why Mexicans shouldn't learn English.

[MsAnthrope]

America doesn't have a national language, does it? I don't know, I think I agree with SQ. It doesn't bother me that there are signs in many languages.. it's pretty cool; now I have an opportunity to learn how to say "would you like to make a withdrawl" in Spanish. That doesn't hurt me in the least.

[duckplucker]

I don't believe that its really that big of deal to provide road signs in english and spanish.

bilingual road signs would cost tons. imagine whatever we are spending now. then double it. lotsa $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

if you come to america and dont speak english you are dumb. if you bring small children to america and dont teach them english, you are dumb. if i went to mexico to live and didn't know spanish, i would be dumb.

i have no sympathy for these people. if they just wanted to speak spanish for thier whole life they should stay down in mexico. america is an english speaking country.

i would support an amendment to make english the national language, it would prevent us from ever needing to pay for bilingual street signs.

[hotfoot]

i have no sympathy for these people. if they just wanted to speak spanish for thier whole life they should stay down in mexico. america is an english speaking country.



at least for now it is. it wasn't 300 years ago.

[zero2056]

"But The Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. The Lord said, 'If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.'"

And that is why Mexicans shouldn't learn English.

:confused:

Is that some biblical thing to explain why we have different languages in the world? Does the bible try to explain difference in culture?

[mrjohnchimpo]

while i'm sure hotfoot was joking, yes, the Bible does explain differences in culture. i think with the tower of babel story (i'm no expert though). i think it had something to do with the fact that everyone used to speak the same language, but then evil grew very powerful because it spoke in the same language as well, so God split up the world and made everyone speak a different language so that evil wouldn't be as powerful.


..........i'm the best storyteller, ever.

[False Alarm]

America doesn't have a national language, does it?
think it's important to clarify this, as some peeps seem to realize it and some don't. national language = predominant language. so the US does have a national language: english.

but the US does not have an official language (ie, a language designated for use in schools, official documents, road signs, etc), and that fact hasn't hindered the country too much in its first 200+ years. thus many of the analogies in this thread aren't quite right because, for example, spanish is the official language of mexico while the US doesn't have an official language.

peeps can discuss the virtues of English Only all they want, but they gotta realize that as it stands right now, english is not to the US as italian is to italy, english to england, or spanish to mexico.

[JVO]

think it's important to clarify this, as some peeps seem to realize it and some don't. national language = predominant language. so the US does have a national language: english.

but the US does not have an official language (ie, a language designated for use in schools, official documents, road signs, etc), and that fact hasn't hindered the country too much in its first 200+ years. thus many of the analogies in this thread aren't quite right because, for example, spanish is the official language of mexico while the US doesn't have an official language.

peeps can discuss the virtues of English Only all they want, but they gotta realize that as it stands right now, english is not to the US as italian is to italy, english to england, or spanish to mexico.

Well said FA. There have been some movements to try to pass a Constitutional Amendment which would make English the official language, but nothing that was ever taken too seriously. This is basically an issue that is only argued inside the Beltway. 5% of people on the far right think the Amendment should be passed, and 5% of people on the far left think that only a facist country would impose a national language. Everyone else thinks the entire issue is stupid and a complete waste of time. I suspect that if somebody seriously tried to push an Amendment through the house, it would probably pass, but it would be far more trouble than it is worth. As far as road signs and schools go, I think it is completely up to local governments to decide.

[bangg trimm]

Every last bit absolutely true. If I moved to Mexico (or pick your favorite country... pick Italy)... I would expect to learn how to speak Spanish/Italian. I woulnd't expect them to teach my children how to speak English (though in this case... they probably would considering is more or less the vernacular with French).

Sorry... its probably the midwesterner coming out in me, but teaching my children how to speak Spanish is not important to me, unless they really want to know. If they choose to take German, or whatever, fine... I liked that part of school, as it let you explore some other cultures, but just because they'res a large population of people who many are not even legally here doesn't make it a priority for me.

American = English, and it should be part of any test that people take to get citzenship. The most important part of most any job is communication. If you cannot effectively communicate, you're not worth much in the job market which is why you earn a lower wage.

i don't agree. it is just as reasonable to have more than one language taught in school--even to the level of proficiency. i think this for a number of reasons:

1. some ideas cannot be expressed in every language. different languages reveal different things. like eskimos having 100 words for snow, depending on the type; like many versions of spanish--at least mexican spanish-- having only one word for all root vegetables, whether it is a carrot or a yam or a turnip or a daikon radish. the distinguishing part is the color and/or the size.

2. whether is liked or not, the fact is that a great number of people speak fluent spanish here. even citizens. the government must represent constituency.

3. there is no pure english.. lots of "english" words are simply taken from french or latin or derived from many other languages. i'm not talking only cognates. i mean literal word for word. arguing for it is funny. english and america are historic melting pots.


4. when i was travelling in europe, most places did have english speakers readily availble. but when there was not, i was soo greatful. like in prague, where my pocket was picked.. the police only spoke german and czech and thought i was a moron. i just wanted to be able to get my money so i could eat and sleep somewhere. people who spoke a language i understood were gods.

5. also while travelling, i would be walking along and suddenly have the realization "i understood what i just heard!" it was amazing.

hearing songs and such in your native language, no matter your current geo-political situation, is important. even if you choose a new future, your past is important. whether it's on the level of having comfort foods from childhood when you are upset and lonely; or on the level of not disavowing your past life and splitting yourself in two just have better prospects for your future.


I know that liberals support this idea of amnesty (or something close to it) more so than conservatives, but they also typically have a large support of organized labor unions when it comes to vote time. It'll be interesting to see where organized labor drops its hat (and I know recently that some have switched their vote to Conservative). Illegal immigration is a direct threat to the whole idea of Unions, and thus will effectively lower all wages given that the influx is great enough. Greater supply, steady demand... wages go down. Can't get an illegal alien legally into a Union, to keep the solidarity strong.

i don't think immigrants are the threat. they are pawns. big business is the enemy to unions. profit motive/supremacy is the enemy to unions. to a humane situation for all.

[JVO]

I am still a little confused. Was I the only person who went to a high school where taking 4 years of a foreign language was mandatory? I guess I thought that all high schools made foreign language mandatory. Maybe not though. If not, I sure wish I went to a school where is was not mandatory. I can tell you from experience that it was a complete waste of time. Probably 2 out of every 30 students in the class actually cared at all. Everybody else (myself included) just thought it was a stupid waste of time. The poor students who actually cared had the entire class ruined by the apathy of everyone else.

I think that for people who are interested in taking a foreign language, there is a lot to gain, but to force people to take it seems very strange to me. I wasn't required to take four years of Math, but God forbid I try to get out of a year of Spanish. Also, in my life, I can only think of 2 or 3 instances in which speaking Spanish served me in anyway. I guess I am pretty old school, but I think one of the reasons why our schools suck so bad is because we have gotten away from teaching the basic Reading, Writing and Arithmetic.

Also, for better or worse, the World has accepted English as the world language. The UN's official language is English, the Olympics official language is English. Even in the far east, the only language that people care about learning, with the exception of their own, is English. That is why so much of the world speaks English (well I guess that is a chicken egg arguement). If I was traveling abroad, I still wouldn't expect people to speak English. I would expect them to speak whatever language their laws are written in.

Finally, if Americans were encouraged to learn the language of all of the people who immigrated here, we would all speak 50 different languages. The reason why the "melting pot" of America is successful is because everyone who has immigrated here has learned to speak the same language (which just so happens to be English). What makes more sense teaching everyone to speak Spanish, German, French, Russian, Japanese, Italian etc. or just having everyone who comes here to live learn English? I am not saying that Mexican immigrants who can't speak English should be thrown in jail or anything crazy like that, but what is more realistic, teaching 11,000,000 illegal immigrants to speak English (which they will use all of the time), or teaching 264,000,000 legal American citizens of all nationalities to speak Spanish (which they will almost never use)? Seems like a no-brainer to me. Also by teaching foreign speakers to speak English, we are not telling them that they can not speak their own language or pass that language onto their children. Certainly I agree with everything you said about native languages having special meaning, but learning to speak English doesn't take a way from that, it simply makes it easier for these people to have successful lives in America, which is an English speaking nation.

[bangg trimm]

I am still a little confused. Was I the only person who went to a high school where taking 4 years of a foreign language was mandatory? I guess I thought that all high schools made foreign language mandatory. Maybe not though. If not, I sure wish I went to a school where is was not mandatory. I can tell you from experience that it was a complete waste of time. Probably 2 out of every 30 students in the class actually cared at all. Everybody else (myself included) just thought it was a stupid waste of time. The poor students who actually cared had the entire class ruined by the apathy of everyone else.

I think that for people who are interested in taking a foreign language, there is a lot to gain, but to force people to take it seems very strange to me. I wasn't required to take four years of Math, but God forbid I try to get out of a year of Spanish. Also, in my life, I can only think of 2 or 3 instances in which speaking Spanish served me in anyway. I guess I am pretty old school, but I think one of the reasons why our schools suck so bad is because we have gotten away from teaching the basic Reading, Writing and Arithmetic.


and certainly another is the teaching of standardized tests. not relevant to general argument, but true. you raise interesting points, though, as to the basic nature of education--

what should get taught?
how should it get taught?
who gets to decide?

reading writing and arithmetic are fine. and pragmatic for most jobs and for day to day living. so is multi-lingual capability.

don't most high school kids regard most subjects as a waste of time?


Also, for better or worse, the World has accepted English as the world language. The UN's official language is English, the Olympics official language is English. Even in the far east, the only language that people care about learning, with the exception of their own, is English. That is why so much of the world speaks English (well I guess that is a chicken egg arguement). If I was traveling abroad, I still wouldn't expect people to speak English. I would expect them to speak whatever language their laws are written in.

Finally, if Americans were encouraged to learn the language of all of the people who immigrated here, we would all speak 50 different languages.

if this a response to my post, a clarification:

i am not advocating that everyone know every language that has made its way to this country. i was suggesting that it is not even a large step to consider proficiency in at least two languages as a requirement of education. other countries do that. we can too. i think it might give us at least a chance of stepping outside good old-fashioned american solipsistic arrogance.

The reason why the "melting pot" of America is successful is because everyone who has immigrated here has learned to speak the same language (which just so happens to be English). What makes more sense teaching everyone to speak Spanish, German, French, Russian, Japanese, Italian etc. or just having everyone who comes here to live learn English? I am not saying that Mexican immigrants who can't speak English should be thrown in jail or anything crazy like that, but what is more realistic, teaching 11,000,000 illegal immigrants to speak English (which they will use all of the time), or teaching 264,000,000 legal American citizens of all nationalities to speak Spanish (which they will almost never use)? Seems like a no-brainer to me. Also by teaching foreign speakers to speak English, we are not telling them that they can not speak their own language or pass that language onto their children. Certainly I agree with everything you said about native languages having special meaning, but learning to speak English doesn't take a way from that, it simply makes it easier for these people to have successful lives in America, which is an English speaking nation.

i agree with many of your points. i was earlier trying to point out that a statment like "american=english" is, to my mind, reductive to the point of silliness. it presumes (implies?) the english language --and the citizenry of the U.S.)-- is a static idea, if not a platonic form. and so, i was attempting to open up those ideas to a more representative reality of the constant change of existence, the ebb and flow. what is tradition today was novelty yesterday. ideas gain status through cultural consent, not by some inherent factor; as monarchs gained power by the will and/or oppression of their subjects, not by the godhead claimed to be living through them and their line.

i'm not sure that last bit came out as intended
i'm tired

night

[Soul Queen]

Required foreign language for high school:

I went to high school in a very small town where there was no foreign language teacher. There was some satelite class taught by a women who did not know spanish. So I took a half a semester.

If its not offered at your high school, colleges will not penalize you for not having those foreign language credits to get in.

I did take foreign language in college. I took Chinese. Colleges let you decide which language you take. But it also depends on your major. Getting an undergrad from an arts and science college you are required to take so many credits of foreign language.

Other majors from different schools may not require this.

[professor booty]

just a note.

The world has accepted English as the world language...for now. Just like French was the lingua franca for awhile, and everyone who did international business learned it. What's next? Will Soul Queen be a step ahead with her Chinese? Think about how short a time English has been the language of international dealings and get a reality check.

pr. bootay