Saddest song of 'em all

[ElRiche]

As a partial tribute to my friend JVO, I am wondering if anyone can claim to have heard a song that elicits more elemental sadness than Jackson Browne's "Song for Adam." If I had to put forth a challenger, I might, for personal reasons, choose another Browne song: "My Opening Farewell." I've read numerous net threads about this topic, but am unpersuaded with the contenders.

So, any ideas?

[JVO]

Both of those are going to be tough to beat.

[JVO]

Here is what I came up with (aside from aforementioned Jackson Browne tunes)

"Send in the Clowns" Judy Collins
"All By Myself" Eric Carmen
"Hurt" Nine Inch Nails
"Fire and Rain" James Taylor
Anything written by Don Williams

[Lori Burger]

Songs that always make me cry:

1. 'Elderly Woman Behind the Counter in a Small Town' by Pearl Jam
2. 'Forever Young' by Rod Stewart

[slam]

that's my fave pearl jam song, lori. but it never makes me really sad.

some additions:

nirvana's cover of "where did you sleep last night" (he sounded on the verge of tears on the 'unplugged' version)

tori amos "me and a gun"

as for "hurt", it is indeed a sad song, but johnny cash's version is all the sadder

there's lots of sad songs from radiohead, the cure, etc, but i'm not sure they qualify as saddest ever.

[ElRiche]

I'll have to listen to some of these to gauge the relative sadness levels, but the Radiohead reference made me think of a particular song that is sad in an intellectual sense (as would be virtually any Radiohead tune suggested to fall in this broad category): Let Down.

"...one day, I am going to grow wings, a chemical reaction - hysterical and useless..."

Has always made me think of bug wings instead of feathers, like a metamorphosis. But not so stately as the transformation from caterpillar to butterfly. Rather, something less elegant. Some inadequate attempt at demonstrating beauty. But that's the intellectual side, I suppose.

As a normative quality eliciting sadness, I would suggest that the most successful tunes tend to deliver some unequivocal and apparent truth about absolute loss; a message that something cherished cannot be regained by mortal standards. This aspect of the sadness quotient typically resonates even with those folks who have not experienced such a loss, but can be made to imagine the difficult circumstances.

[False Alarm]

:lol: sadness quotient.

[hasslehound]

Ben Folds - "mess"
Gary Jules cover of - "mad world"

[ElRiche]

Nice. Thanks. I'll give 'em a listen.

[ElRiche]

On a bit of a tangent, a Russian dissident writer/professor of mine once claimed that non-lyrical music cannot elicit a particular emotion in the listener. My immediate reaction was that this was probably false, but having given it more thought I understand there may be some weight to the statement. At this point, I am unsure what to think about this proclomation.

I've listened to quite a bit of Beethoven and Chopin, among other classical composers, and I still feel inclined to think that the original emotional intent of the composer can essentially be imparted on the listener. Any dissenting opinions?

[Soul Queen]

On a bit of a tangent, a Russian dissident writer/professor of mine once claimed that non-lyrical music cannot elicit a particular emotion in the listener. My immediate reaction was that this was probably false, but having given it more thought I understand there may be some weight to the statement. At this point, I am unsure what to think about this proclomation.

I've listened to quite a bit of Beethoven and Chopin, among other classical composers, and I still feel inclined to think that the original emotional intent of the composer can essentially be imparted on the listener. Any dissenting opinions?

I don't agree with that Non lyrical music cannot elicit a particular emotion.

Music for me is tied to certain situations and people in my life. If I hear a song that I associate with a particular person whether or not it has lyrics it will still make me feel a certain way.

hmmm...

[ElRiche]

I don't agree with that Non lyrical music cannot elicit a particular emotion.

Music for me is tied to certain situations and people in my life. If I hear a song that I associate with a particular person whether or not it has lyrics it will still make me feel a certain way.

hmmm...

Okay. But then would you suggest that however you feel about a particular non-lyrical piece that others most likely feel at least a semblance of the same basic emotion, regardless of their own experiences? I think that was his point.

Still, I don't see how anyone can feel anything very far afield of melancholy when listening to Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. Ordinarily chipper folks may want to turn it off instead of listening to it if they feel it dampens their spirits, but I don't see how anyone can listen to it and not feel a pang of melancholy - even if in the best of spirits otherwise. So I don't necessarily disagree with you, Soul Queen, but rather wanted to clarify your position on this.

[JVO]

No lyrics, much more open to the interpretation of the listener. I think any person can experience any emotion listening to any song, but if there are no lyrics then it is much more likely that individual listeners will experience the same song in different ways.

I remember once going on a road trip with my nephew. At the time he was like 8. Just for fun I put Ode to Joy in and totally blasted it. I thought my nephew would really like it. Instead it completely freaked him out. He thought it should be put in a horror movie. I never would have thought about it like that, but after thinking about it, I could see his reasoning.

[ElRiche]

Maybe it was the blasting aspect of the presentation that overwhelmed the lad. I have no recollection of my listening preferences at age 8, but I might still have been jamming then to Disney tunes. But even Disney tunes at 40 decibals in an encolsed environment can seem too much sometimes. Who knows. If he's related by blood to you, then he's probably a snap and might have objected to certain political overtones that the ordinary ear isn't capable of discerning at age 8.

Yet though I've said what I've said on this, I actually suspect that you can elicit a specific response in people by playing music (or making noise) that hits on chords and frequencies that bind all our emotions together. I think there is still enough sameness among humans that this can be tapped into. While I don't believe any classical composers would have set out to try and accomplish this, there are others who may be interested in such designs.

I still have to listen to a few of the suggestions for saddest song offered by you and others, but I'm making my way through them. Any other come to mind?

[Ag Au]

this conversation reminds me of a good radio program i heard a few months ago. it talks about music, sound and language and how our brain processes them. you can listen here:

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2006/04/21

i have been thinking about the saddest song issue. i think a lot of them for me is from the cowboy junkies album "trinity sessions". a lot of cowboy junkies songs can be heart wrenching, and this album is especially so. mining for gold, misguided angel, blue moon, i'm so lonesome i could cry - all will get me all teary.
most versions of knockin on heavens door get to me as well, but i will always favor the bob dylan version.

[Soul Queen]

The Eagles- The Best of My Love- After the Thrill is Gone- always makes me sad for some reason.

[JVO]

Yeah Desperado too. I never would have thought of The Best of My Love as being sad. I think I read a list of "Best Songs to do it to" and Best of My Love was in the top ten. HMMM. I will have to remember where I read that. It might have been something that 007 gave me.

I saw a mythbusters a while back where they tested a myth that there was a certain frequency of sound that would make a listener immediately lose control of their bowels.

They couldn't do it.

[ElRiche]

I saw a mythbusters a while back where they tested a myth that there was a certain frequency of sound that would make a listener immediately lose control of their bowels.

They couldn't do it.

With more funding, more access to high-tech accoutrement, and more time, maybe Mythbusters or at least 100 monkeys could have caused folks to lose control of their bowels with enough consistency to be statistically significant.

My immediate idea would be to give 1,000 people some serious laxatives and have scientists monitor their gastrointestinal tracts for movements or vibrations. Take the average and median values of these movements/vibrations, and then give the same folks a good meal, wait 30 minutes, then aim 15-inch cast aluminum woofers at their midsections and pump up the volume with the average and median frequencies. If that doesn't work consistently, go back to the drawing board.

Incentive for the study volunteers? Free food for as long as it takes the Mythbusting monkeys to figure out the right frequency. Also, free earplugs.

[Soul Queen]

With more funding, more access to high-tech accoutrement, and more time, maybe Mythbusters or at least 100 monkeys could have caused folks to lose control of their bowels with enough consistency to be statistically significant.

My immediate idea would be to give 1,000 people some serious laxatives and have scientists monitor their gastrointestinal tracts for movements or vibrations. Take the average and median values of these movements/vibrations, and then give the same folks a good meal, wait 30 minutes, then aim 15-inch cast aluminum woofers at their midsections and pump up the volume with the average and median frequencies. If that doesn't work consistently, go back to the drawing board.

Incentive for the study volunteers? Free food for as long as it takes the Mythbusting monkeys to figure out the right frequency. Also, free earplugs.

That sounds disgusting. :(

[ElRiche]

That sounds disgusting. :(

Ha ha! I don't disagree that it falls into the category of 'unorthodox', but such is the price of scientific advancement... sometimes.

[Soul Queen]

Ha ha! I don't disagree that it falls into the category of 'unorthodox', but such is the price of scientific advancement... sometimes.

That study would have some serious IRB issues.

[ElRiche]

That study would have some serious IRB issues.

If IRB is internal review board, then probably true. If something else, then probably true, too.

So letting bowels aside and perhaps others that might trip the IRB alarm, I wonder if anyone else has heard of interesting research using music and/or noises to stimulate expected and repeatable responses in people.

[Soul Queen]

I do mean the Internal Review Board.

I have read of a biologist studing how fish perceive vibrations. It was odd.

[ElRiche]

That's interesting, actually. Isn't it the case that the memory of goldfish is rather short, and that they tend to forget what the other side of the bowl looked like shortly after moving to the other side? If so, and goldfish react with predictable regularity to certain frequencies, then is it possibly not the result of their remembering the frequency, but rather some preternatural or a priori response?

And then what about humans?

[Soul Queen]

That's interesting, actually. Isn't it the case that the memory of goldfish is rather short, and that they tend to forget what the other side of the bowl looked like shortly after moving to the other side? If so, and goldfish react with predictable regularity to certain frequencies, then is it possibly not the result of their remembering the frequency, but rather some preternatural or a priori response?

And then what about humans?

That was the study actually.

[Ag Au]

elriche, did you see the alternate shining trailer thread? sorta seems to be in line with this conversation in an insy way. just change some music and elicit a new response. certainly not a scientific study, just fun.

[ElRiche]

That was the study actually.

Including comments on how the findings may be extrapolated to human experience?

I know a friend of a friend (that would make my Erdos number 3 as a goldfish payer-attention-to-er) who wrote her doctoral dissertation on just this topic - goldfish memory, that is. So the goldfish thing is fairly common knowledge, but what about studies on humans?

[ElRiche]

Here is what I came up with (aside from aforementioned Jackson Browne tunes)

"Send in the Clowns" Judy Collins
"All By Myself" Eric Carmen
"Hurt" Nine Inch Nails
"Fire and Rain" James Taylor
Anything written by Don Williams

"..the old familiar sting..."

"...what have I become, my sweetest friend?
Everyone I know
goes away in the end..."

Sadly, true. In the end, we are all alone.

Think, JVO. Think. Have you ever heard that before?

[Soul Queen]

Including comments on how the findings may be extrapolated to human experience?

I know a friend of a friend (that would make my Erdos number 3 as a goldfish payer-attention-to-er) who wrote her doctoral dissertation on just this topic - goldfish memory, that is. So the goldfish thing is fairly common knowledge, but what about studies on humans?

Unfortunately, I didn't read the conclusion of the study or whether the biologist even compared it to human experience. I don't believe so.

[JVO]

[QUOTE=ElRiche

Sadly, true. In the end, we are all alone.

Think, JVO. Think. Have you ever heard that before?[/QUOTE]

HHMMM, not sure what song you are talking about. Are you talking about NIN or something else.

I still can't listen to NIN without being transported in time to the old pad. Are you still in touch with Keiiii (God only knows how to spell his name)? Also was Kakoa the brother or the dog? I still get that confused. He always hated me because I always called him the dog's name (and because Toshio and I humiliated him in hockey!)

[ElRiche]

HHMMM, not sure what song you are talking about. Are you talking about NIN or something else.

I still can't listen to NIN without being transported in time to the old pad. Are you still in touch with Keiiii (God only knows how to spell his name)? Also was Kakoa the brother or the dog? I still get that confused. He always hated me because I always called him the dog's name (and because Toshio and I humiliated him in hockey!)

The lyrics are from NIN, but the phrase 'in the end we are all alone' was a bit of advice one of us would have given to others. I guess my question was can you remember who said that?

That's funny about mixing the names up. Difference in names between dog and brother was just one consonant, so easy to see why. I recently got Keahi's number from his brother - fortunately, I guessed the right consonant.

[JVO]

[QUOTE=ElRiche]The lyrics are from NIN, but the phrase 'in the end we are all alone' was a bit of advice one of us would have given to others. I guess my question was can you remember who said that?

[QUOTE]

Seems like something Tosh would say.

Remember Nothing Man! Poor Nothing man. Coulda been something.

[ElRiche]

How about 'waves on the sea?' JVO meets Floyd, in abstract art.

[JVO]

How about 'waves on the sea?' JVO meets Floyd, in abstract art.

:thumbsup:

Still whenever I hear that CD I kinda have to pee. It is all about the water!!!!

[ElRiche]

Yay Pavlov. His work still resonates in the world.

[JVO]

Yay Pavlov. His work still resonates in the world.

I guess that makes me the dog!?!?! :headbang: :dizzy: :huh:

[ElRiche]

Mayhaps, but it's not for lack of cognizance. We may all be Pavlovian dogs in one sense or another.

Anyone else for ideas about the saddest song of 'em all? Surely, there are people who may read this post who will think 'Eh? What kind of silly sad song is that (or those?) I've got one..."

To touch again on the Radiohead suggestions - too cerebral. Truly sad songs should not elicit as much mental Sudoku as Radiohead - though I enjoy their songs. Country music can be eminently sad because it is so honest and direct. Any suggestions there?

[The Assassin]

As a normative quality eliciting sadness, I would suggest that the most successful tunes tend to deliver some unequivocal and apparent truth about absolute loss; a message that something cherished cannot be regained by mortal standards. This aspect of the sadness quotient typically resonates even with those folks who have not experienced such a loss, but can be made to imagine the difficult circumstances.

What in god's name are you babbling for? You're KILLING me!:dizzy:

[cuscus]

Dyeing in time by Dolorean-sad in a love sort of way.
Please tell my brother-Golden Smog

[ElRiche]

What in god's name are you babbling for? You're KILLING me!:dizzy:

Ha ha! matty already took me to task for that, and you are referencing an earlier message. I am somewhat reformed now, at least in this thread.