Where we argue about race/class and Hurricane Katrina

[hotfoot]

I'm moving this topic out here so other people can jump in if they want to. Read the end of the Katrina thread to catch up.

JVO, RE: your argument that you believe we have a class problem not a race problem, I half agree. We do have a class problem, one which I imagine is evident to most of us these days. However, when you talk about NO "happening" to be a black city and thus a city with a black poor population, and when you refer to "disillusionment" and "hopelessness" in poor black America, you are essentially perpetuating an argument which ignores and feeds the (highly underacknowledged) race problem in this country. Cities like NO don't happen to be black; cities like NO are black because blacks bear the brunt of economic inequity in this country. Which means race is just as predominant as class when it comes to dealing crap hands in this country. And blacks who live in inner cities surely suffer from the same amount of disillusionment and hopelessness as whites in the suburbs. I think that's pretty condescending to place that on them.

[JVO]

It is so difficult to distinquish between race and poverty in this situation since most of the poor are African American. It seems that most of the poorest AA live in inner cities and most of the poorest white people live in rural areas (and vote Republican, which seems strange to me). I do think there is a definite difference between race problems and class problems and what we saw in NO is probably a combination of the two, though I do think it is much more about class than race. If a similar thing happened in Prince George's County, Maryland (an affluent African American county) I seriously doubt that we would have seen the same violence that we saw in NO. This is true for an upper class white community also. I think there would still be looting (although when is the last time in the US you ever saw rich people or white people looting?), but I do not think that there would be the violence that was described in NO. Where the race issue comes up, is the idea that white people were being targeted by the "thugs" who were patroling the streets during the time of anarachy. Now it could be these people were targeted because the "thugs" believed that they would have more money than the locals or it could be simply because they were white. I think that is a very important difference and one that I can not rectify. Regardless there is certainly still many race issues that have not been sorted out by this country and in no way was I trying to disregard these problems. I do think that considering, less than 150 years ago we still had slavery and less than 50 years ago we had Seperate but Equal, we have come a very long way in a short amount of time. Needless to say we still have a ways to go. I do think the great racial divide facing this country in the 21st century is going to involve Hispanic people. I lived in Colorado for many years, and have visited Texas a number of times in the last year, and the hatred that citizens of these states have for Mexicans surpasses anything I have seen against African Americans (even living in Virginia for 8 years). I have three cousins who are all doctors who legally immigrated to Colorado from Mexico City in the past 5 years, and they have said that their transition has been extremely difficult and they never thought how much racism they would encounter. Considering all three of these people are highly educated Mexicans who did everything the right way, I am sure things are much, much worse for the uneducated Mexicans who sneak over every day. Regarding Katrina there are a couple of questions that I am trying to come to terms with:

1.) Everything else being equal, would the response time had been quicker if the people stranded were white instead of black? If you believe the answer to this is Yes, then you believe at some point along the chain of command somebody made a conscious decision to not send aid as quickly as possible because the people involved are black. I am not willing to make this leap until there is some sort of evidence to support this. I think the Fed gov't was totally unprepared for this situation and it was their own ineptitude that created the delays. I do not think that anybody at any point in the chain of command decided to stop aid because the people who needed it were Black. The problem was that the Fed gov't for whatever reason (Iraq!?!?!) was not in a position to provide aid immediately. Perhaps Pres. Bush should go outside of his school boy friends to fill cabinent positions.

2.) How much blame should be put on the local and state Governments? In my mind as much blame should go to the Gov and Mayor as to the Federal Government. Mass evacuations should have taken place well BEFORE the hurricane landed not AFTER. The local authorities knew how many people did not have transportation (they recently completed a local study on the matter) and they should have known that under the worse case senerio it would be a real bitch to try to get these people out AFTER the hurricane. Prisons and hospitals should have been evacuated before not after. If people had a chance to leave and didn't, they got what they deserved, if they never were given a chance (as was mostly the case) then that is a major problem that can be blamed on the local governments.

3.) Why were the levees not fixed years ago? I know funding was cut back during the Bush Administration, but how had it gone this long? I remember my 8th grade Earth Science teacher telling us that one day NO would be under water if a hurricane hit it. If my teacher new this certainly the city of NO and the Dept of Interior would too.


4.)How accurate was the reporting of the situation? I agree with nearly everything said by Zero.

Ok I guess that is all I got. Cool Thread we got going here!!!!!

[slam]

i can't figure out whether i think the poor response had more to do with race or class. however, the fact that race and class are so closely tied together is merely the symptom of a deeper issue in american society.

2.) How much blame should be put on the local and state Governments?

local and state governments are broke. there's no way they could begin bussing out tens of thousands of people and putting them up for indefinite weeks every time a hurricane comes by. they can't even afford medicaid, or their no-child-left-behind programs. a lot of states have taxes based off of the federal tax rate, so when g.w. cut taxes, the states had a lot less income as well. never mind the massive cutbacks in federal funding to the states. and when you have NO with such a large population in poverty, well, the city couldn't afford much either.

3.) Why were the levees not fixed years ago? I know funding was cut back during the Bush Administration, but how had it gone this long?

the levees weren't exactly 'broke' before the hurricane hit. they just require a lot of upkeep periodically to keep them sound. bush cut the funding so that we could go to war in iraq and give his buddies tax breaks. no funding = no upkeep = broken levees.

[JVO]

I am sure that many of you already knew this (I watched a show on Discovery Times Ch. about Katrina...fantastic show), but in 2002 two writers described what would happen in NO if a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane were to hit dead on. Almost everything that they described (including the delays in rescue and the intense violence) happened exactly the way they reported that it would down to what levees would fail and where. In fact, things were actually not as bad as what they described because Katrina actually missed a dead on landing in NO. It wasn't the hurricane that caused the major damage it was the levees breaking down.

Like you said Slam, the levees were not broken before the hurricane, they simply were not big enough. In 1959 the levee system was built in response to a cat. 3 hurricane (I think it was called betsy?) that drenched NO. Everyone knew that this system would provide perfect safety for any storm that was Cat. 3 or less, but they also knew absolutely that if there was a storm that was a 4 or 5 that the levees would fail. Nothing had been done to improve these levees for 45 years.

As far as states being broke, certainly there is some connection with state and federal taxes, but to blame the federal government entirely for the poverty in LA is a bit much. LA was broke when Clinton was President (Arkansas was broke when Clinton was Gov.) LA was broke when Reagan was President, LA was broke when Carter was President. In addition to that, according to individual state budget records, 8 of the poorest 10 states in the country (as far as deficit goes) are states that have/had until recently Democratic Governors (how else did we get the Govenator?). Also there are a number of states which do not have a deficit so it obviously isn't impossible to run your state in a fiscally responsible way with GW in office. There is enough blame to go around. I know Pres. Bush is a shithead, but the more stuff that we blame on him (that really he doesn't deserve) the more difficult it is to make a case about all of the crap that he really does deserve blame for. That is why I am against the idea that the Federal Government dragged their feet on the rescue because it was only poor blacks that were in trouble. This arguement, which I do not agree with, takes away from my gripe, The Federal Goverment was completely inept at restoring order in a place that was devasted. Isn't this the entire reason we have homeland security? The most important contribution to the Nation (if you want to call it that) of Bush's presidency was revealed as being completely incapable on handling a situation that we KNEW IN ADVANCE was going to happen. Imagine if this had been a bomb going off, how long would it have taken then? A week? A Month? As far as money for evacuation, NO shut down all the schools and all of the utility services for that day (Monday) the amount of money they saved in doing this certainly would have been enough to run a couple hundred busses (btw all of these buses were inactive because of closed schools and are currently underwater) to Baton Rouge. If the hurricane turned out to be devastating (as it was) then LA knew they were going to get disaster relief. Certainly it would have been incredibly uncomfortable for the evacuees, and most wouldn't have wanted to leave anyway, but at least it would have been better than the chaos we saw in the Superdown and Convention Center. So to say that LA did not have the money is a bit of a cop out. They knew they were going to be nailed, they knew the levees were going to brake, and they knew that they could immediately declare a State of Emergency and get Fed'L Relief. I am not trying to take away any blame from Pres. Bush, but certainly at all levels of government we completely failed. Only now does it seem that we somewhat are getting are act together.

[matty]

I've been trying to stay out of it, but I have some thoughts, irrelevant as they may seem to the overall situation. (I like to negate myself before making statements so that no one gets mad if I say anything poopy.)

I agree that this was a failure on every level of government. Sadly, with a system like ours, mistakes sometimes have to be made before we properly address them. But I also think that the Bush administration didn't show proper concern for the citizens in New Orleans before the hurricane struck, and now that it has I'm very curious to see how the Bush administration handles it. Because let's face it--regardless of how we might feel or how we are assessing the situation from here in MO or IL or NY or wherever, the fact of the matter is that a lot of black people are PISSED. Bush's administration hasn't had the most cuddly reputation with minorities, and he'd better do something spectacular to help ease the concerns of these black citizens or the race/class gap will get dramatically worse once we have a body count.

I'm white. VERY white. So I have no idea exactly what the average black American might think while watching footage of devastated New Orleans. But I am a homo, so I think when someone says that there is no race gap or gender gap, I am inclined to call bullshit on that. It's easy for middle class white people to say there isn't a race/gender/orientation gap, because they can't see it. Which is understandable--they're not a black lezbo. But I bet I can guess what the black lezbo will tell you. She'll probably use a couple of fingers to demonstrate, too. But I also believe that the race gap, much like the relief effort for the victims of Katrina, is a failure on everybody's part.

I think this could be a huge crisis for the Bush administration's already sinking popularity. So focused are we on killing a threat in another part of the world that we are totally taken aback when a NATURAL disaster wipes out one of our most unique cities. How with the administration handle this? Because Bush's patronizing, smarmy, hollow comments made with a smirk aren't really getting a positive message across.

PS--did anybody else see the clip of Bush saying how he can't wait until Trent Lott's house gets rebuilt so they can drink on the porch? Where the hell is Bush's Press Secretary??

[matty]

Funny thing:

I got stoopid and sat down to watch Anderson Cooper run around New Orleans like a kid in a candy shop. (Anderson Cooper, by the way, is HOT.) He was interviewing a doctor about the conditions of the scuzzy water, which is apparently full of disease. "What sort of diseases are in the water?" Anderson asked. "E. Coli," began the doctor, and then he listed off a bunch of other shit, but because I'm fucked up when he said "E. Coli" I thought for a second that he had said "Ebola" and I was like, HOLY SHIT!!
:buddychr:
Then I realized I was retarded.

[JVO]

Wow Matty Good Job!!!!

I got really pissed last night driving home. I was scanning through the radio stations and heard a conservative political talk show host talking about how rotten it is that people are "politicizing (?) this trajedy". I nearly crashed. A conservative talk show host bitching because people are trying to further their agenda, is like Pamala Anderson bitching about women getting breast implants. The only thing that could be good about this whole situation is the fact that the horrible conditions in the inner city were illustrated to the entire country. If we ignore this problem (as we have done for decades) than all of the people who died did so in vain.