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View Full Version : Stir it up Pt 2


zero2056
10-16-2008, 10:58 AM
:groucho:Since there is some boredom out there, and not much to talk about as we all wait to vote, let's hit another hot item. I talked to JVO about this one night, and he at the time dared me to even utter my belief that global warming just may not be human caused on these hallowed B2P boards.

Not really a politics forum issue. More geo-political. I'm not 100% on this bandwagon of human caused C02 being the cause of any increase in the world temperature, and not all scientists support it as well. I'm sure some scientists are on the payroll of Exxon Mobil and the like, but for arguments sake, let's say that some of them are legit, and as many that are on Exxon Mobil's payroll, there are an equal amount on the Sierra Club or some other environmental group's, balancing out the money-grubbing corrupt scientists, with actual scientists.

On my tour through Turkey and ruins of Ephesus, an ancient greek city, these additional thoughts came to me. This city (now many miles inland) was at the time a bustling Greek sea port, which was its importance to the empire. What happened to the port? The best guess (which is all we have to work with, not a fault, just a fact - can we ever do anything better than guess?) is that the global climate was cooling, which caused an increase in the global ice caps and shrinking of the overall sea level combined with the slow filling in of the harbor area with silt from a river that fed into the harbor and the aegean/med sea. So about 2,000 years ago, the Med/aegean sea was lapping at the shores of this site. Now, you have to drive a couple miles to find the sea.

In the 1970's the scientific consensus was that the world was headed into a new ice age.... doom and gloom.. we're all going to freeze, blah blah blah. I'm not sure when Global Warming started becoming the next issue that climatoligists rallied around, maybe in the 80's, but now we must all worry about the doom and gloom of our human caused warming of the planet.

As most of you know, I live in Missouri. This year and I would daresay last year have been the most mild summers and coldest, wet, winters I can remember. I think we had one week near the end of July this year, where temperatures hit their usual miserable 95+ mark with 100% humidity. The rest of the summer has been fantastic. And, our rainfall has increased substantially, with us being as much as 20 inches over norm, causing for quite a pleasant existence, lush vegetation... I have no complaints.

I did some research a few months back after uttering my claim to the chagrin (and due to his contrarian nature, utter glee if I may be so brave) of my belief. Apparently, the majority of carbon dioxide is actually created from large fires that burn underground around fossil fuel areas (primarily coal), which we have no control over (unless we think we can put out a giant underground coal fire). The human contributed level of CO2 was somewhere in the 5% range (again.. their best guess... how can they really know), what we actually have any sort of control over. Also, there is C02 that is released through the thawing of permafrost, and many other natural sources such as forest fires, etc. Methane, strangely enough, is a stronger component to greenhouse effects rather than C02, and that of course occurs all the time with decomposition and what-not.

Is our 5% really causing this chaos, or is mother nature just going through a cycle that none of us can truly appreciate, because the lifespan of a human is too short.

This is the question I toss out to you. Marked levels in overall temperatures have been recorded for some years now, but do you believe that it is all man-made, or is this something that is just occurring due to a trend we have no control over? Will humans 100-200 years from now... maybe 500 or 600 years from now read our studies and laugh at us as they discover it was actually due to increased solar activity, or some other natural trend that is then discovered at a later date?

I don't really have any problems with curbing our green house emissions, because it makes us conserve limited fossil fuel resources in the long-run, which seems like a smart idea... if we must follow this belief to make it happen, then so be it. But I have some doubts that is the true cause of what we call today global warming.

Let the flames begin :groucho:

slam
10-16-2008, 11:26 AM
i believe that one of al gore's critical achievements was to introduce the term 'climate crisis' as opposed to 'global warming'. as you note, not all areas are warming. some are cooling.

has the climate always been changing? of course it has. there is no debate about that. we've been through many warming/cooling cycles. during each of those cycles, life on earth was severely impacted. some species thrived, some were completely wiped out.

we, as humans, will of course survive this upheaval. but millions of us will probably die. our agricultural system does not deal well with even slight changes in temperature and rainfall. droughts, floods, earlier/later freezes, etc, will cause massive economic upheaval and population shifts, the likes of which we can't currently imagine.

add to that rising sea levels, and you enter a nightmare scenario. something like 90% of the earth's population live by the coast. if those cities start flooding, we're going to have some major issues. (what if new york becomes the next new orleans? what if half of florida ceases to exist?)

all that said, our current global warming cycle (and the teperature, globally, is indeed going up... hell, the north pole was ocean this year) might be part of a natural cycle. but it seems obvious to the vast majority of scientists out there that we are, at the very least, helping to warm the planet. you say we only contribute 5% of the CO2 to the atmosphere. but the climate is used to having CO2 in the atmosphere. the question is, at which point does it tip too far? 5% is not negligible. if i replace 5% of your soda with LSD, you'll damn sure notice. in extremely complicated systems like the global climate, any slight change can have massive consequences.

CO2 traps sunlight. more CO2 traps more sunlight. if we are currently warming up, then releasing less CO2 just seems straight up logical...

poofdogg
10-16-2008, 11:34 AM
if i replace 5% of your soda with LSD, you'll damn sure notice.

Now that would be just plain crazy. Maybe you would become the mythical being that thinks he is an Orange permanently from taking too much LSD.

zero2056
10-16-2008, 12:51 PM
You're right.. Manhattan may eventually go under water.... maybe the majority of Florida (I've no idea, would have to look at a topographical map), but its not going to happen overnight. You're talking many years. It's not like, "oh shit.. my house is flooded" and then you die.

People will have to move out of these heavily concentrated areas. We're not talking about a "Water World" scenario where everyone has vaginas... I mean gills behind their ears, and there is one utopian Island we're all looking for while being chased by Dennis Hopper on a wave runner....

Also, isn't it also fair to say that as the temperatue increases, areas now unsuitable to agriculture (Northern US, Canada, Russia, Norway, so on and so forth) that don't have a current overly long growing season would become new havens for ag production?

Again... not against trying to curb greenhouse emissions, because it would help other things, but something tells me that in 10 years National Geographic is going to have some other new crisis that has replaced global warming. Scientists are guessing as much about this as Father O'Malley is on whether or not heaven exists.

False Alarm
10-16-2008, 01:20 PM
People will have to move out of these heavily concentrated areas. We're not talking about a "Water World" scenario where everyone has vaginas... I mean gills behind their ears, and there is one utopian Island we're all looking for while being chased by Dennis Hopper on a wave runner....
jesus. i don't care none about your questioning global warming, but why the fuck you gotta start talkin bout water world? fuck! water world? what the fuck is your problem man? hey, next why don't you tell us about your favorite scene from the postman. assclown.

slam
10-16-2008, 01:29 PM
Also, isn't it also fair to say that as the temperatue increases, areas now unsuitable to agriculture (Northern US, Canada, Russia, Norway, so on and so forth) that don't have a current overly long growing season would become new havens for ag production?

obviously that's true. who knows, the sahara may become the world's new bread basket. but humans can not relocate and recreate their distribution methods without considerable cost. do you believe that the average farmers in the world will be able to up and relocate their entire societies in the span of a few generations without massive upheaval, and even war?

as i said, this entire climate crisis issue is survivable by humanity as a whole. it is an economic crisis. and economic problems typically disproportionately affect the poor. it will have serious geopolitical consequences that i think are best avoided if at all possible.

Scientists are guessing as much about this as Father O'Malley is on whether or not heaven exists.

scientists have data, and tested theories. to say it's blind faith is ridiculous.

slam
10-16-2008, 01:33 PM
fuck! water world?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orsj7f5awiM

most awesomest film evah.

zero2056
10-16-2008, 05:06 PM
jesus. i don't care none about your questioning global warming, but why the fuck you gotta start talkin bout water world? fuck! water world? what the fuck is your problem man? hey, next why don't you tell us about your favorite scene from the postman. assclown.

Can't really speak about The Postman, but I can talk a mean Tin Cup!

zero2056
10-16-2008, 05:08 PM
Doom and gloom, the world's going to end!!

:cheers:

bubz_bluez
10-20-2008, 08:26 AM
i think you both make good points... and false alarm never seizes to be over the top--<go pass out on a coffee table farley>

anyways you say you've done the research on this zero well im one of those people who doesnt believe inless its right infront of me so i shall scower the internet in search of this theory

in the mean time this is what i what the next president to do---put a million fully electric cars on the road. it wouldnt be that hard--there are joe shmoes out there building them in they're SPARE TIME!!!
i have the knowledge to build one.... its expensive but if a company like ford starts making them mass preduced it wont be as expensive.
i can build you a car that can run 300 miles to the next charge... its true there isnt charging stations everywhere... but is there anyone here that drives even half that to work and back everyday<<---and thats the kind of car the average joe needs just something to get them back and forth from work everyday

this isnt about me convincing you that this is a good idea.. i know you know its a good idea we need to convince people in power its a good idea

OBAMA 08"

bubz